Lion Beer Bock

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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#31

Post by thatsus02 »

I wanted to let everyone know that the BCCA officers are aware of the thread and I am in the process of talking with a couple of the members that have posted here.

I believe George has the right to be heard if he chooses to reply or explain. We will make him aware of the conversation and let him make his choice. The difficult part here is that this become a big game of he said, he said, and that those stories might not be the same. We will work with the information given to address this as officers. As we are all volunteers, please bear with us to give us time to reach out to these members.

In the mean time, the Rusty Bunch is following this and will not tolerate any comments that go against our forum rules. We want everyone to have the chance to chime in, if they chose, and don't want to turn off the posting of this thread. Please chose your words carefully as we move to get answers to this, knowing they may never come.

Some of the RB moderators are also FB moderators and if this makes it to the FB pages, we will monitor those comments as well for comments that go against our standards on the FB pages.

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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#32

Post by Pbama »

Would be nice to see George provide this Lion Bock can, as well as what’s left of the 2,000-3,000 other cans that were Martin’s prized possessions, to any one of the auctions with all the proceeds going to Martin’s estate. The check should be cut not to George but only to one of Martin’s family members. Also, if this Lion Bock can ever shows up on eBay or FB we should all be sure to bombard either platform with stolen property complaints.

thatsus02 wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:23 pm I wanted to let everyone know that the BCCA officers are aware of the thread and I am in the process of talking with a couple of the members that have posted here.

I believe George has the right to be heard if he chooses to reply or explain. We will make him aware of the conversation and let him make his choice. The difficult part here is that this become a big game of he said, he said, and that those stories might not be the same. We will work with the information given to address this as officers. As we are all volunteers, please bear with us to give us time to reach out to these members.

In the mean time, the Rusty Bunch is following this and will not tolerate any comments that go against our forum rules. We want everyone to have the chance to chime in, if they chose, and don't want to turn off the posting of this thread. Please chose your words carefully as we move to get answers to this, knowing they may never come.

Some of the RB moderators are also FB moderators and if this makes it to the FB pages, we will monitor those comments as well for comments that go against our standards on the FB pages.

Thanks
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#33

Post by Rod S. »

In the BCCA article, it says the Lion Bock was lost for a few years in boxes of cans. Does this seem realistic or was the can in hiding waiting for the heat to blow over? Rod S.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#34

Post by chicagocans »

Rod S. wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:20 am In the BCCA article, it says the Lion Bock was lost for a few years in boxes of cans. Does this seem realistic or was the can in hiding waiting for the heat to blow over? Rod S.
I can’t imagine any serious collector setting 2000 to 3000 cans aside “for several years” without even looking at them, especially if a known holy grail can was potentially in the mix. By Miller’s own account, these were the cherry-picked “keeper” cans that were separated from the roughly 35,000 lesser valued cans that were distributed/recycled. The existence and location of these "keeper" cans was kept hidden from the rightful owner after his recovery, even when he and others asked about their whereabouts. There was a clear and deliberate attempt to conceal, wait, and eventually claim the cans as the robber’s own (in the BCCA magazine, no less!). Absolutely despicable and a black eye for the BCCA for publishing the author's blatant falsehoods.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#35

Post by Pbama »

100% agree and I believe Georgey boy waited until Martin’s passing to reveal his bounty.
chicagocans wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:06 pm
Rod S. wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 12:20 am In the BCCA article, it says the Lion Bock was lost for a few years in boxes of cans. Does this seem realistic or was the can in hiding waiting for the heat to blow over? Rod S.
I can’t imagine any serious collector setting 2000 to 3000 cans aside “for several years” without even looking at them, especially if a known holy grail can was potentially in the mix. By Miller’s own account, these were the cherry-picked “keeper” cans that were separated from the roughly 35,000 lesser valued cans that were distributed/recycled. The existence and location of these "keeper" cans was kept hidden from the rightful owner after his recovery, even when he and others asked about their whereabouts. There was a clear and deliberate attempt to conceal, wait, and eventually claim the cans as the robber’s own (in the BCCA magazine, no less!). Absolutely despicable and a black eye for the BCCA for publishing the author's blatant falsehoods.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#36

Post by Tinman »

Pbama wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:58 pm Would be nice to see George provide this Lion Bock can, as well as what’s left of the 2,000-3,000 other cans that were Martin’s prized possessions, to any one of the auctions with all the proceeds going to Martin’s estate. The check should be cut not to George but only to one of Martin’s family members. Also, if this Lion Bock can ever shows up on eBay or FB we should all be sure to bombard either platform with stolen property complaints.
With 2,000 to 3,000 prized cans to sort through and find homes over ten years, who's to say that some (or a lot?) of these cans have not already been posted in online auctions, market place or where ever. I'm guessing the only one who would know this are the auction houses and or George, and I'm guessing they are not sharing this type of info.

Is the only can anyone would notice to be from Martin's batch the Lion Bock?

I feel for the family and the collecting hobby in general when something like this happens.

STAY SAFE!
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#37

Post by Joe T »

Tinman wrote: Tue May 16, 2023 3:24 pm
Pbama wrote: Mon May 15, 2023 8:58 pm Would be nice to see George provide this Lion Bock can, as well as what’s left of the 2,000-3,000 other cans that were Martin’s prized possessions, to any one of the auctions with all the proceeds going to Martin’s estate. The check should be cut not to George but only to one of Martin’s family members. Also, if this Lion Bock can ever shows up on eBay or FB we should all be sure to bombard either platform with stolen property complaints.
With 2,000 to 3,000 prized cans to sort through and find homes over ten years, who's to say that some (or a lot?) of these cans have not already been posted in online auctions, market place or where ever. I'm guessing the only one who would know this are the auction houses and or George, and I'm guessing they are not sharing this type of info.

Is the only can anyone would notice to be from Martin's batch the Lion Bock?

I feel for the family and the collecting hobby in general when something like this happens.

STAY SAFE!
In the BCCA article, George states that he found the Lion Bock can in his storage 10 years ago. That's eight years before Martin passed away. Why would he keep another collector's cans for eight years without paying for them or returning them when asked to do so?
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#38

Post by menke »

I don't think George is particularly a can guy, his room at BlueGray was generally craft coasters and tap handles and the like so I'm assuming that's the main thing he collects. If I were to speculate, I'd guess any can could well be left in a box for years when it's not your thing. You'd have to have been a fly on the wall and hear what he was actually told to do with the cans to make a sound judgement.

Given the history, though, I doubt any dealer would accept that can for auction as things stand now. There's certainly an optics problem.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#39

Post by CMD »

I call BS...that's like having King Tuts treasure and nobody takes a peak???? Most of the breweriana hobby started out as can people, he knew exactly what was in there and the value of such. I can see, maybe, if a non-collector, not looking or caring....what else was stashed away that we don't know of?? At some point , George never reached out to Martin and said, I have some boxes of your cans, do you want them back??? I can't see how George makes it to any show.....his fate is sealed, just like Fireman Mike...I hear there's room in the world of collecting crayons????!!!!!

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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#40

Post by Matt Menghini »

This is a sad story for sure. I really find this upsetting on a personal level as I've been watching this play out. As an aside. I keep thinking about Bill Christenson. Somehow, someway a phenomenal collection is said to have just disappeared into thin air. You got to wonder about these things. On the other hand though ... how many times has one of our members got sick or passed and his buddies stepped up to the plate and done a great job of making sure that his widow and family were fairly treated. It happens all the time, and has been happening for years (although a lot more recently it seems), so let's not forget about all the guys that make the RB great. That far outweighs in my view what I've been reading about here lately.

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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#41

Post by jacoby4664 »

Matt Menghini wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 3:49 pm This is a sad story for sure. I really find this upsetting on a personal level as I've been watching this play out. As an aside. I keep thinking about Bill Christenson. Somehow, someway a phenomenal collection is said to have just disappeared into thin air. You got to wonder about these things. On the other hand though ... how many times has one of our members got sick or passed and his buddies stepped up to the plate and done a great job of making sure that his widow and family were fairly treated. It happens all the time, and has been happening for years (although a lot more recently it seems), so let's not forget about all the guys that make the RB great. That far outweighs in my view what I've been reading about here lately.

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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#42

Post by Ed Johnson »

menke wrote: Wed May 17, 2023 11:28 am I don't think George is particularly a can guy, his room at BlueGray was generally craft coasters and tap handles and the like so I'm assuming that's the main thing he collects. If I were to speculate, I'd guess any can could well be left in a box for years when it's not your thing. You'd have to have been a fly on the wall and hear what he was actually told to do with the cans to make a sound judgement.

Given the history, though, I doubt any dealer would accept that can for auction as things stand now. There's certainly an optics problem.
George's wife, Dale is a serious craft coaster collector and they always had lots of craft 'stuff', like stickers, and tap handles and such at shows.

George is definitely a can collector, and was head of the Red Fox chapter into the early 2000's.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#43

Post by thatsus02 »

Ok I have reached out to the BCCA President who in turn spoke with George ans asked him to make a statement about the thread. Below in green is Georges response.

Mike Newton has asked me to post his message below that on blue.

The details you will read may not change anyone's minds, I just ask that we keep the comments civil and within our forum rules.

Thanks

To set the record straight there was nothing sinister going on. Jim Stempleski was Martin's best friend. I have been a good friend of Martin since the 1970’s. The deal was between Jim and Martin and it was to get rid of all the cans in the house which was being foreclosed on. We had three days to empty the house. No breweriana, just all the cans. Jim was fighting his own medical problems so he enlisted me to be his partner. Per Jim there was never any talk of Martin getting any cans back or they simply would have gone into a storage unit in Massachusetts. Per Jim, they were ours to do as we pleased as long as they did not go into a dumpster which was my initial suggestion for many thousands of them. Four of us busted our asses for several days to clean out and transport the cans.

Approximately 35,000 of what we considered the lesser valued and/or way off-grade cans went into storage at Keith Norton’s warehouse in New Hampshire and were distributed to some collectors and most I believe were ultimately recycled.

2000 to 3000 went partially to my home, some to Jim Stempleski's home and some to storage in my brother’s garage, which is not near my location. We were dealing with such a large number of cans that in the beginning I did not even know I had the Lion nor did I know its rarity. Martin let me know of the Lion at a subsequent Paper City Brewery Show and I let him know that I had not located it at that time. For many years the Lion's location remained unknown until I got all the cans and went through them about 10 years ago. Since then the can has been part of my collection. A number of collectors who have visited my collection have seen this can in my home. It was definitely not being hidden.

Martin saw me selling some of these cans at various shows. At a Paper City Show he had no problem and was able to tell me the history of some of them. I had the same experience spending time with Martin at Fallfest also.

I'm sorry that some of you think we took advantage of Martin but that was not the case. We worked hard and thought we were doing him a favor.

I am not a serious collector and most of my cans were sold off between 1995-2015.

Sincerely, George Miller


The officers and board of directors are aware of the ongoing discussions and controversy surrounding the Lion Bock can. I have personally reviewed all of the discussions and I have also personally spoken with George Miller concerning the situation. Many of the members originally involved are now deceased and all current discussion on this thread is hearsay. This situation in no way warrants any action by the officers or board of directors of the BCCA.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#44

Post by MI-Cans »

I try to be fair in my postings.

I don't know and have never met either Mr. Landey or Mr. Miller. I know of Mr. Landey through my extensive searches of the Catalog and Supplements for my personal education in the Hobby.

Never having looked up anything on Mr. Miller, I thought it only fair that I post his HOF posting like I did Mr. Landey's previously in this thread.

Click to enlarge.


hof.png

I was only able to find two articles by Mr. Miller in the BCCA Magazine using the BMV.

2013-08-09 PAGE 22.png

2013-08-09 PAGE 23.png

2018-01-02 PAGE 05.png

(MI-Cans)
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#45

Post by chicagocans »

thatsus02 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:56 pm Ok I have reached out to the BCCA President who in turn spoke with George ans asked him to make a statement about the thread. Below in green is Georges response.

Mike Newton has asked me to post his message below that on blue.

The details you will read may not change anyone's minds, I just ask that we keep the comments civil and within our forum rules.

Thanks

To set the record straight there was nothing sinister going on. Jim Stempleski was Martin's best friend. I have been a good friend of Martin since the 1970’s. The deal was between Jim and Martin and it was to get rid of all the cans in the house which was being foreclosed on. We had three days to empty the house. No breweriana, just all the cans. Jim was fighting his own medical problems so he enlisted me to be his partner. Per Jim there was never any talk of Martin getting any cans back or they simply would have gone into a storage unit in Massachusetts. Per Jim, they were ours to do as we pleased as long as they did not go into a dumpster which was my initial suggestion for many thousands of them. Four of us busted our asses for several days to clean out and transport the cans.

Approximately 35,000 of what we considered the lesser valued and/or way off-grade cans went into storage at Keith Norton’s warehouse in New Hampshire and were distributed to some collectors and most I believe were ultimately recycled.

2000 to 3000 went partially to my home, some to Jim Stempleski's home and some to storage in my brother’s garage, which is not near my location. We were dealing with such a large number of cans that in the beginning I did not even know I had the Lion nor did I know its rarity. Martin let me know of the Lion at a subsequent Paper City Brewery Show and I let him know that I had not located it at that time. For many years the Lion's location remained unknown until I got all the cans and went through them about 10 years ago. Since then the can has been part of my collection. A number of collectors who have visited my collection have seen this can in my home. It was definitely not being hidden.

Martin saw me selling some of these cans at various shows. At a Paper City Show he had no problem and was able to tell me the history of some of them. I had the same experience spending time with Martin at Fallfest also.

I'm sorry that some of you think we took advantage of Martin but that was not the case. We worked hard and thought we were doing him a favor.

I am not a serious collector and most of my cans were sold off between 1995-2015.

Sincerely, George Miller


The officers and board of directors are aware of the ongoing discussions and controversy surrounding the Lion Bock can. I have personally reviewed all of the discussions and I have also personally spoken with George Miller concerning the situation. Many of the members originally involved are now deceased and all current discussion on this thread is hearsay. This situation in no way warrants any action by the officers or board of directors of the BCCA.
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Re: Lion Beer Bock

#46

Post by chicagocans »

thatsus02 wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:56 pm Ok I have reached out to the BCCA President who in turn spoke with George ans asked him to make a statement about the thread. Below in green is Georges response.

Mike Newton has asked me to post his message below that on blue.

The details you will read may not change anyone's minds, I just ask that we keep the comments civil and within our forum rules.

Thanks

To set the record straight there was nothing sinister going on. Jim Stempleski was Martin's best friend. I have been a good friend of Martin since the 1970’s. The deal was between Jim and Martin and it was to get rid of all the cans in the house which was being foreclosed on. We had three days to empty the house. No breweriana, just all the cans. Jim was fighting his own medical problems so he enlisted me to be his partner. Per Jim there was never any talk of Martin getting any cans back or they simply would have gone into a storage unit in Massachusetts. Per Jim, they were ours to do as we pleased as long as they did not go into a dumpster which was my initial suggestion for many thousands of them. Four of us busted our asses for several days to clean out and transport the cans.

Approximately 35,000 of what we considered the lesser valued and/or way off-grade cans went into storage at Keith Norton’s warehouse in New Hampshire and were distributed to some collectors and most I believe were ultimately recycled.

2000 to 3000 went partially to my home, some to Jim Stempleski's home and some to storage in my brother’s garage, which is not near my location. We were dealing with such a large number of cans that in the beginning I did not even know I had the Lion nor did I know its rarity. Martin let me know of the Lion at a subsequent Paper City Brewery Show and I let him know that I had not located it at that time. For many years the Lion's location remained unknown until I got all the cans and went through them about 10 years ago. Since then the can has been part of my collection. A number of collectors who have visited my collection have seen this can in my home. It was definitely not being hidden.

Martin saw me selling some of these cans at various shows. At a Paper City Show he had no problem and was able to tell me the history of some of them. I had the same experience spending time with Martin at Fallfest also.

I'm sorry that some of you think we took advantage of Martin but that was not the case. We worked hard and thought we were doing him a favor.

I am not a serious collector and most of my cans were sold off between 1995-2015.

Sincerely, George Miller


The officers and board of directors are aware of the ongoing discussions and controversy surrounding the Lion Bock can. I have personally reviewed all of the discussions and I have also personally spoken with George Miller concerning the situation. Many of the members originally involved are now deceased and all current discussion on this thread is hearsay. This situation in no way warrants any action by the officers or board of directors of the BCCA.
First-person witness accounts are not hearsay. Circumstantial evidence has probative value, as well.
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